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Re: How do liberals tackle the immigration question?

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:56 pm 
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We did, indeed, discuss this very issue during the last GE.

http://mailwatch.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=6262

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:58 am 
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How do liberals tackle the immigration question? Easy.

1. Don't label all people who think immigration is a problem as being racists.
2. Try some cognitive dissonance-lite by accepting that while immigration can be positive for the country it does have some negative impacts.
3. Not all immigrants are the same. There are good immigrants and there are bad immigrants.
4. Try and find an alternative word(s) for 'immigrant'.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:18 am 
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Quote:
while immigration can be positive for the country it does have some negative impacts.

That's my take but I have found little interest in those with an anti-immigrant sentiment in having a consensual debate on how to deal with its negative impacts without tanking the economy.

Is it opportunist dog whistling by pointing out that Brexit trade deals are more likely to result in China wanting to bring over its own workforces and India wanting more free movement of labour? In the case of India yes as a two-way flow of IT workers will do no harm to either economy.

But the kind of deals China has foisted on its partners in Africa to export its workforces are the immigration policies of a neutered vassal state and not the kind of immigration I'd ever support. I'll leave May and Nuttall to sell that one to their electorate.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:34 am 
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When you try all that and are just told 'there are just too many of 'em' you have to fall back to the position that they are simply racists.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:42 am 
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Multi-culturalism has failed in Walton-on-the Naze
Quote:
The Thirty Most Extreme Places in Britain

The most nationalist area of the country are a few streets around the central section of Walton Road in Walton-on-the-Naze in Essex. (example postcode CO14 8NW). This is a seaside town which is part of the Clacton constituency, the only seat won by UKIP at the last general election.

This area has a position on the nationalist axis of 50° Nat, which is the most nationalist in Britain.

It is also fairly right wing, and voted heavily for UKIP (66%) at the general election. Its voters chose overwhelmingly to Leave the EU by 91% to 9%.

Residents are older than the national average, do not enjoy good health, and feel much more English (85%) than British (11%), and are mostly UK born. They tend to me less well educated, and have more routine jobs.

This appears to be a working-class right-wing area which is strongly nationalist. http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/Anal ... part2.html


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:44 am 
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I was referring to the mind set of some liberals Malc. When there's an acceptance from both ends of the spectrum that neither are completely right then you can move on and find common ground.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:46 am 
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I have an abiding resentment for the scum-sucking bastards who have worked relentlessly for at least the past 20 years to get large numbers of British citizens to become totally obsessed about immigration. In doing so, they have actively and deliberately brought about the UK's imminent departure from the largest, most constructive and progressive mutually beneficial association of nation-states on this planet, which in turn will cause decades of economic hardship, detriment to our National Health Service and social upheaval.

And for what? Some twisted ideology that has at its core the hatred of the other, the outsider. These people have in the process arguably caused the murder of a member of parliament on the street by a fascist race-obsessed fanatic.

Immigration is, in my view, unequivocally a very good thing for this country. As well as contributing to the economy, supporting vital public services, starting successful business enterprises and creating employment, immigrants to the UK have enormously enriched our culture and society with colour, taste, and joy.

In respect of the EU, the free movement of individuals that facillitates people coming to the UK from other EU member states and Britons going freely to those other parts of the EU, is arguably not technically immigration at all, but rather the product of a mutually beneficial reciprocal voluntary agreement between member states in an alliance of nations.

If concentrations of immigrants in particular areas lead to pressure on infrastructure and services in those areas and associated tensions, the onus is on government to ensure that the appropriate funding is directed to those areas to ensure that schools, hospitals, doctors' surgeries etc are able to cope with the pressures - the answer is not for government to seek simply to ban people from coming to the UK. The last Labour government had such a scheme in place, but the Tories scrapped it as soon as they came to power.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:51 am 
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Did anybody hear Humphrys doing a vox pop in Shirebrook on the Today programme this morning? (It was at 1:32:33 in here) A GP was interviewed to counter allegations made by the locals that Poles get preferential treatment for healthcare: apparently one person believed that Thursday was "Polish Day."


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:51 am 
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Daley Mayle wrote:
while immigration can be positive for the country it does have some negative impacts.

But as I've said before, the "negative impacts" are not caused by immigration, but by governments failures to spend money.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:52 am 
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Armsteen stands and doffs hat.

Put that on Facebook!

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:02 pm 
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lord_kobel wrote:
Daley Mayle wrote:
while immigration can be positive for the country it does have some negative impacts.

But as I've said before, the "negative impacts" are not caused by immigration, but by governments failures to spend money.



Sir! I salute your indefatigable support of your end of the spectrum and your resolution to not move an inch!

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Malcolm Armsteen wrote:
Armsteen stands and doffs hat.

Put that on Facebook!

+1

Daley Mayle wrote:
I was referring to the mind set of some liberals Malc. When there's an acceptance from both ends of the spectrum that neither are completely right then you can move on and find common ground.


For example. But refer to Ab's previous paragraphs to explain why this is not how the debate has been framed.
Quote:
If concentrations of immigrants in particular areas lead to pressure on infrastructure and services in those areas and associated tensions, the onus is on government to ensure that the appropriate funding is directed to those areas to ensure that schools, hospitals, doctors' surgeries etc are able to cope with the pressures - the answer is not for government to seek simply to ban people from coming to the UK. The last Labour government had such a scheme in place, but the Tories scrapped it as soon as they came to power.


When Corbyn launched Labour Remain he spoke at length about EU wide and UK reforms that could mitigate the negative effects of FoM. I was very pleased to hear Corbyn tackling the issue head on with a grown-up balanced approach. The first question from the BBC's chief political correspondent: "Why haven't you talked about immigration Mr Corbyn?"


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:15 pm 
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It may take a decade or more but the far-right can now experience the grass on the other side*. Countries that have experienced eccentric nationalist wrong turns like DeValera's Ireland and Franco's Spain don't go back to them.

*Assuming May will actually implement Brexit fantasies or will settle for a Swiss type of deal and dare her right wing to start this Brexit referendum bollocks all over again.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:24 pm 
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It's not me that needs convincing, I get it.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Quote:
4. Try and find an alternative word(s) for 'immigrant'.


Ex-pats?

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