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Europe? And the Future of Britain in Europe

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Anyone know where to start, this seems to have all come down to those "bastions of British stability" The City of London's financial institutions.

The New Statesman are already predicting that there will be a move for an EU Referendum to see whether we remain in it, I honestly cannot see how the coalition can any longer exist either. I know Clegg wanted one but can they really co-exist in a party that will campaign so for a "Yes" vote in which to leave?

Cameron hasn't done this to please his party, he has done it not to piss his friends off in finance, the ones who are partly responsible for the shit we are in economically, but what he has done may lead to his downfall. Because he isn't doing what's best for the country, he is doing what is best for him and his self interested friends in finance.

Triples all around.....


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:45 pm 
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It's an absolute nightmare, and in a rare moment of sympathy for Cameron I don't see what else he could have done because he's screwed either way and he knows it.

I don't think being in would have necessarily been brilliant either, and I don't think for one moment a new EU treaty 100% fixes anything (the US is basically the closest model, and that's hardly financially rock solid just now). But I can also see the worst case scenario coming to pass: a referendum, a hijacking of the vote by the vested interests of the few at the expense of many, and the UK becoming increasingly isolated and with a further weakened economy.

Plus of course as soon as we left the EU, the next demand would be made - foreigners out. Then the witch hunts start.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:28 pm 
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crabcakes_windermere wrote:
It's an absolute nightmare, and in a rare moment of sympathy for Cameron I don't see what else he could have done because he's screwed either way and he knows it.

I don't think being in would have necessarily been brilliant either, and I don't think for one moment a new EU treaty 100% fixes anything (the US is basically the closest model, and that's hardly financially rock solid just now). But I can also see the worst case scenario coming to pass: a referendum, a hijacking of the vote by the vested interests of the few at the expense of many, and the UK becoming increasingly isolated and with a further weakened economy.

Plus of course as soon as we left the EU, the next demand would be made - foreigners out. Then the witch hunts start.


True True, I think his leadership is rocky anyhow. It is telling that Boris took the pressure off as a collaspe now would leave him high and dry to succeed. Sadly this is all I think they are interested in.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Bagehot in The Economist:

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A final thought. If we do end up leaving the EU for the sake of the City of London (a big if) it would be ironic if some of those same banks and hedge funds then turned around and announced they were leaving Britain anyway because euro-zone rules made it impossible to work in London, and so they were off to a combination of Paris, Frankfurt, Zug and Singapore. So sorry old boy, nothing personal.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:36 pm 
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I guess all that lobbying paid off, Cameron has favoured banking interests ahead of everything else. Given how the likes of Obama want a secure Eurozone and the resulting vetoes doom the currency, there'll be a lot of angry faces on both sides of the Atlantic. All for what? Political posturing within his own party. He was screwed either way, but the silent consent from the Lib Dems is deafening.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Or we've (Cameron) shot ourselves completely in the foot, lost almost all allies in Europe, proved our veto to be useless, now there's no block against 'Merkosy' to offer any real alternative or solutions and our banks are no more secure from a Tobin tax. Playing his cards too early springs to mind. He's ruled out leaving the EU and a referendum "We're not going ahead with the treaty. Others are. It will mean big changes for them. We're not changing."

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:15 pm 
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There is an argument that he did what any Tory leader would have been more or less obliged politically to do. But I think he has missed a chance at statesmanship by signing up to the Merkozy initiative. After all, a Tobin tax isn't going to affect the City of London that badly, and he could have won electoral popularity by presenting it as finally making the bankers that got us into the mess pay for real to get it sorted. His Deputy could have supported him, instead of sitting on his fucking hands. The cunt.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:24 pm 
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You're underestimating quite how in thrall to the banking interests the modern Conservative party are, bot in terms of support and finance and the awe that the new intake of MPs has for them.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Nick Clegg is getting more and more unlike able over this.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Cameron's best hope now is that other parliaments/public votes say no and the UK is suddenly not in a club of 1. That, and the eurozone finances/debt get worse and it all falls apart like a Chinese motorcycle.

Worst nightmare is everyone else says yes, they group together strongly and the eurozone leaps forward without us. Then it'll be too late. The banks will immediately fuck us over because hey, they're banks, they couldn't give a shit about us and never have, and they'll never come back even if we join up down the line.

At best Cameron has saved us the hassle of signing up to a treaty that won't actually do much. At worst, he's doomed the UK to become a global backwater and lost hundreds of thousands of jobs through the subsequent departure of the finance industry and the destruction of the city.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:57 pm 
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I've noticed Milliband's criticism is pretty instubstantial. Something about not building alliances. The 17 Eurozoners were certs. Some of the others intend to join. Others will go with the bigger block. And would it make much difference if it were us and Denmark, instead of us, alone?

So what are the Liberals left with, from what they wanted at the election? We're still in the ECHR. And we had that referendum on a voting system they didn't like much anyway. And Murdoch was stopped, though that was down to the Guardian.

What they haven't got?

Health.
Education.
Fiscal policy.
Transport.
EU policy.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:00 pm 
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Self respect.
A chance at the next election.

But they have still got Simon 'Invertebrate' Hughes!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:24 pm 
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And Clegg got to sound off at Oxbridge. Dead sheep. Savaged by.

I bet next year they have 100% comprehensive students.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Shit, I spotted a spirited Lib Dem on the news.

Lord Oakeshott is quite good.

Ha, ha. Gary Gibbon on Channel 4 News said Clegg did a lot of alliance building, but may well have been bad at it.
The Tories can even blame him for their isolation.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:54 pm 
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crabcakes_windermere wrote:
Cameron's best hope now is that other parliaments/public votes say no and the UK is suddenly not in a club of 1. That, and the eurozone finances/debt get worse and it all falls apart like a Chinese motorcycle.

Worst nightmare is everyone else says yes, they group together strongly and the eurozone leaps forward without us. Then it'll be too late. The banks will immediately fuck us over because hey, they're banks, they couldn't give a shit about us and never have, and they'll never come back even if we join up down the line.

At best Cameron has saved us the hassle of signing up to a treaty that won't actually do much. At worst, he's doomed the UK to become a global backwater and lost hundreds of thousands of jobs through the subsequent departure of the finance industry and the destruction of the city.

Depending on what amendments were to be made on the Lisbon Treaty, there would likely have to be a referendum in Ireland before Enda Kenny would be allowed to put his signature to it. And if I'm right, the amendment would still require unanimous consent.

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