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Re: The first Corbyn shadow cabinet

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:00 am 
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Abernathy wrote:
Well, yes, clearly the public warmed to Blair's charisma. I was less impressed.


This Charisma seems to be a very subjective quality:
Cameron - the untimate empty cardboard box.
Farage - Pissed up gobshite.
Both polished with a veneer of boarding school "Manners".


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:26 am 
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David Cameron is great at sounding prime ministerial when he's glad handing visiting dignitaries or giving a pep talk to the England footie team. He's less so in a crisis or when faced with a difficult question. Fargle's good at whipping up a village hall full of people hearing what they want to hear. Both are charismatic in their own ways. Blair's trick (at least until he got a bit touched) was to make you feel as if he was listening to you and agreeing with everything you said, even if he'd just said the opposite, or you knew he'd forget you the moment you were gone, but for that moment didn't mind.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:06 am 
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If Jeremy Corbyn's followers are somehow worshipping fanatics of some cult-like figure, how is he less charismatic than Cameron or Farage?

Does the result of the leadership election mean that despite being less charismatic than Nigel and Dave, he is still 15 times more charismatic than Liz Kendal?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:30 am 
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mikey mikey wrote:
Does the result of the leadership election mean that despite being less charismatic than Nigel and Dave, he is still 15 times more charismatic than Liz Kendal?


Most things are many times more charismatic than Liz Kendall. Labour in general has a charisma vacuum right now, with only a vew few out there who can really hold the attention for very long (Chuka Umana springs to mind).

Corbyn is not charismatic in my eyes. I would regard that quality as being able to hold the attention of a couple of hundred people who aren't overly bothered about what you have to say for a decent length of time. I believe Corbyn would really, really struggle to achieve this. None of Blair, Cameron or Farage would, nor Brown, Prescott or some of the others mentioned. Having attended an event where George Galloway spoke, he had absolutely no problems about it*. Corbyn is basically Ed Miliband without the air of weirdness. He lacks the fire in his belly and the drama in his voice. He'd be much more suited as a minister than the leader, someone who only ever pops up to talk about their specialist subject rather than have to give the rallying cries.

He'd be a damned fine Health Secretary IMHO.


*Interestingly at said event, the guy who went after Galloway was Geoff Hoon. Oh my God, now there was a shite public speaker.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:37 am 
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bluebellnutter wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
Does the result of the leadership election mean that despite being less charismatic than Nigel and Dave, he is still 15 times more charismatic than Liz Kendal?


Most things are many times more charismatic than Liz Kendall. Labour in general has a charisma vacuum right now, with only a vew few out there who can really hold the attention for very long (Chuka Umana springs to mind).

Corbyn is not charismatic in my eyes. I would regard that quality as being able to hold the attention of a couple of hundred people who aren't overly bothered about what you have to say for a decent length of time. I believe Corbyn would really, really struggle to achieve this. None of Blair, Cameron or Farage would, nor Brown, Prescott or some of the others mentioned. Having attended an event where George Galloway spoke, he had absolutely no problems about it*. Corbyn is basically Ed Miliband without the air of weirdness. He lacks the fire in his belly and the drama in his voice. He'd be much more suited as a minister than the leader, someone who only ever pops up to talk about their specialist subject rather than have to give the rallying cries.

He'd be a damned fine Health Secretary IMHO.


*Interestingly at said event, the guy who went after Galloway was Geoff Hoon. Oh my God, now there was a shite public speaker.


That's fair comment tbh.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:27 pm 
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Corbyn comes over as a bit kindly headmaster. Which is fine in principle - it's certainly a change from career politician. The problem is what's happening in practice. Rather than taking charge like a headmaster, he seems to be letting things happen around him without doing much about it apart from being very decisive on very divisive party issues such as Trident.

I admire his principles and his willingness to stick to them. But his overriding principle should be to see a Labour govt. and if he can't see the damage that trying to push through everything in one go is doing rather than getting the big issues sorted first then making the case for others then he isn't a good leader.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:09 pm 
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‘Reshuffle? Focus on Tory failings in health, housing and education instead’
Jeremy Corbyn

Quote:
Our democracy is being systematically undermined by David Cameron’s government. Having narrowly won the general election, the Tories are now trying to rig the political system to keep themselves in power and weaken the opposition, both inside and outside parliament.

By driving through a new voter registration scheme that will slash the number of young and inner-city voters, while cutting the number of parliamentary seats, the Conservatives are gerrymandering the electoral system to benefit themselves.

By directly attacking Labour’s funding through their trade union bill, and by cutting public Short money support for opposition parties’ research, they are deliberately setting out to enfeeble democratic accountability of their own administration.

Add to that their lobbying and transparency “gagging law”, which prevents charities, unions and thinktanks from taking part in political debate; their naked threats to use the BBC’s charter renewal to hack away at its independence; their packing of the House of Lords with Tory peers; and their move to outlaw councils from boycotts of oppressive governments – and it all adds up to a serious attack on democratic rights and freedoms.
Jeremy Corbyn defends reshuffle with call for Labour unity
Read more

Clearly, the prime minister doesn’t like not getting his own way. For the rest of us, from all parties, this Tory power grab has to be resisted. Every political leader has to be aware of how our rights were won, and our duty to defend and extend democracy. But the responsibility to lead effective opposition to this government, which has proven to be so casual with our democratic freedoms, lies with the Labour party.

Which is exactly what we will do. For all the media sound and fury, last week’s shadow cabinet reshuffle has made us a stronger, more diverse and more coherent leadership team. Along with the huge increase in our party membership in the past six months, it will help make Labour a more effective champion of the people who need us to give them a voice, to win elections and change our country for the better.

This government is failing the country and the large majority of its people. It is carrying out the largest ever fire sale of public assets in a reckless attempt at a short-term fiscal fix – while banking on rising household debt to keep the economy afloat.

It is slashing public services, especially at local level, for those who rely on them for security and a decent life. It is driving the NHS and social care into crisis, while accelerating the privatisation and break up of our health and education services. It is failing to invest in the economy of the future. No wonder George Osborne is getting his excuses in first about the “cocktail of threats” to our economy...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... the-tories

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:58 pm 
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For all the media sound and fury, last week’s shadow cabinet reshuffle has made us a stronger, more diverse and more coherent leadership team. Along with the huge increase in our party membership in the past six months, it will help make Labour a more effective champion of the people who need us to give them a voice, to win elections and change our country for the better.


Knobrot. Sorry.

Needs to stop concentrating on winning his way on Trident and get on with the job of leader of the opposition.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:32 am 
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For all the media sound and fury, last week’s shadow cabinet reshuffle has made us a stronger, more diverse and more coherent leadership team. Along with the huge increase in our party membership in the past six months, it will help make Labour a more effective champion of the people who need us to give them a voice, to win elections and change our country for the better.


That sounds like a robust defence of the shadow cabinet but not one many of the members of it seem to be making. Whether it's true is immaterial, electoral politics is about whether voters perceive something to be true. The electorate do that when they decide your leader is more competent than the other schmuck. And I doubt that's going to be Jeremy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:45 am 
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If Jeremy resigns the PLP may very we'll nominate only "moderate" candidates for the subsequent leadership election. How do you think a large part of the membership will react to such a move? How do you think the Tory party will exploit such a dubious process?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:53 am 
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If Jeremy resigns it will be because he no longer believes he can lead the party to power, what are his supporters going to do about it? Especially if the 2020 election is going to be fort on nonsense about Corbyn leaving the country defenceless against North Korean nukes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:06 am 
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youngian wrote:
If Jeremy resigns it will be because he no longer believes he can lead the party to power, what are his supporters going to do about it?


I imagine they would wish to elect a leader sympathetic to Corbyn's politics. Or at least have a choice of a candidate other than a "moderate". My question was: What would the effect be on the 60% of the membership who voted for him, should the PLP choose to nominate only "moderate" candidates?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:26 am 
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mikey mikey wrote:
How do you think the Tory party will exploit such a dubious process?


I refer you back to the appointment of Michael Howard when the Tory party got together and made sure a candidate was elected unopposed in order to avoid the baying mob in the ranks picking another disaster after the IDS calamity. Labour under Corbyn is little different to the Tories under IDS, policy excepted obviously.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:36 am 
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They will need to ask themselves what drew them to him - his politics or his personality? If it's the latter, then I'd advise against any sort of personality cult. If the former, then look for a new leader who, regardless of their personal stance on issues, is able to recognise and respect differences of opinion and build consensus.

Victory in 2020 is going to be difficult, regardless. While the economy may tank and spending cuts bite, unless you appear to have more competence and better plans than the other guys, you don't stand a chance. You also need people to back you, or at least take you seriously, for your ideas to have a chance. You might have the best ideas and plans in existence, but that's no good if you're being drowned out by catcalls from the gallery every time you open your mouth.

Next, unless things go spectacularly badly, forget any idea of some popular rising or political earthquake. The problem with being a mainstream political party is that you have to play within the system, and that means backing the system. Most people don't march in protest, strike, riot or even sign petitions. You cannot advocate anything outside 'the system'. That lends those in power a massive head start. You may sympathise with people striking but if your train's cancelled or your A&E overwhelmed, your initial anger will be at the person whose absence caused it, not the minister who authorised the policy that led to the strike. Likewise if your local authority's closing libraries and community centres, that's where you'll perceive the problem. It doesn't matter how sorry they feel about what they're doing, or what level of cuts they're being forced to make - you'll be asking 'who is immediately responsible for this shit?'. Meaning that competence in local government won't mean as much as it once did come GE time.

Answers? Ideas? Look to the May elections. If we tank, he goes. Replacement needs to be a consensus builder but at the same time have the charisma to connect. And as said earlier, come up with at least one big attention seeker of a policy that people can actually get enthused about.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:17 pm 
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Andy McDandy wrote:
Replacement needs to be a consensus builder but at the same time have the charisma to connect.


Just what does "consensus" look like?
Does it include "being tougher on than the Tories on benefits"?(Rachel Reeve)
What about "not cutting university tuition fees"? (Liz Kendall)
Or "an alternative austerity" (Yvette Cooper?)
Despite the fact that 75% of full Labour members are against further RAF action in Syria (and only 13% in favour) does consensus mean going along with Hawkish Hillary?

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